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Episode 2

Bluemuda for Turfgrass Management in the Transition Zone

On this episode of the Around the Turf Scene Podcast, Dr. Gregg Munshaw and Brian Winka join Rusty to discuss bluemuda, a growing concept they’ve developed over the past several years. The idea is to grow bluegrass and bermudagrass together in the transition zone to maximize performance year round. It’s a trend that first started on athletic fields but has since expanded to golf courses and even residential lawns. Tune in to learn about fertility requirements, mowing recommendations, geographic limitations, and the future of this growing trend.

About Our Guest:
Gregg Munshaw, Ph.D. is Director of Agronomy for Mountain View Seeds, and he serves as the Turfgrass Extension Specialist and is an Associate Professor at the University of Kentucky. Dr. Munshaw has 26 years of direct turf experience, working on everything from golf courses and athletic fields to developing turfgrass best management practices as a professor at Mississippi State University and the University of Kentucky. His research has focused on variety testing and developing a two-species concept for the transition zone, commonly known as bluemuda.

Brian Winka is a Certified Sports Field Manager, Director of Sports Turf Sales for Advanced Turf Solutions, and Bluemuda pioneer. Brian formerly managed a 200-acre athletic complex in Missouri, and now he helps others improve their facilities and provide the highest quality athletic fields. Fields under his management have been awarded 8 separate national awards for outstanding athletic fields and became one of the first 20 facilities in the world to be Environmentally Certified through STMA. Brian has served as President of the Gateway Chapter of the Sports Turf Managers Association and The Missouri Green Industry Conference.

About Our Host:
Rusty Stachlewitz is a Seed Product Manager at Advanced Turf Solutions. Rusty received his Bachelor of Science in Crop and Soil Science from Michigan State University with an emphasis in Turfgrass Management. He has been a Golf Course Superintendent and General Manager in the industry. He’s also been the turfgrass department head of two colleges and the Program Director of The Lawn Institute.

Rusty Stachlewitz 01:22
Welcome to Around the Turf Scene, your periodical podcast about turfgrass management. I’m Rusty Stachlewitz, your host. Today we’re going to talk with Dr. Gregg Munshaw, from Mountain View Seeds, and Brian Winka, from Advanced Turf Solutions, about bluemuda. Let’s get at it.

Rusty Stachlewitz 01:39
Today with us we have Dr. Gregg Munshaw, from Mountain View Seeds, and Brian Winka, from Advanced Turf Solutions. I’d like to ask Dr. Munshaw to introduce himself first, and then we’ll move on to Brian Winka.

Gregg Munshaw 01:53
I’m Dr. Gregg Munshaw, Director of Agronomy for Pratum Seed Companies, and have been with the company for about a year now. We proudly sell Mountain View to Advanced Turf and have been working with Brian for six years on bluemuda. We have created an interesting relationship with each other over the last six years and actually enjoy each other’s company and talking bluemuda. So, we’re excited about this today.

Rusty Stachlewitz 02:30
Quickly I’m going to interrupt you and start before I even go to Brian. Before you worked for Mountain View, what was kind of your past?

Gregg Munshaw 02:37
I did sixteen years as a university professor at Mississippi State and University of Kentucky and was an extension at UK and did a lot of presentations and working with homeowners and sports turf managers to try and just help them with grass issues. My focus has always been trying to help the little guy that doesn’t have the money or knowledge, necessarily, to do a great job and to help them do a great job.

Rusty Stachlewitz 03:10
Excellent. Now you have to match up to that, Brian.

Brian Winka 03:12
Well, that’s where I come in, the guy that didn’t have any knowledge. Brian Winka, obviously work with Advanced Turf. Before coming here, I was a sports turf manager for a dozen years or so. Like Gregg said, we’ve been working with each other on this concept for quite a while. We actually were introduced to each other at an STMA event. I kind of ran my ideas by him and I think his comment was, “That sounds stupid, but I got family in the area, so I’ll come by and take a look at it just to hear where you type this scenario.” Here we are, six, seven years later, still working on this stuff.

Rusty Stachlewitz 03:59
We’ve said the word bluemuda several times now. One of you want to describe what exactly we’re talking about today?

Brian Winka 04:07
Bluemuda is a growing concept, so it’s not a certain seed variety or anything like that. It’s a growing concept of mixing warm- and cool-season grasses together year round, specifically bluegrass and bermuda, originally started on athletic fields. I’ve seen it on golf courses now, so it’s a growing trend in the transition zone at this point.

Gregg Munshaw 04:36
A lot of homeowners are interested in it, as well. I agree with you completely, Brian. It’s growing and something that more and more people are using. But it’s a fluid kind of a dynamic, as well, where the grasses are changing, the management practices are changing as we learn more about it as we go. And a lot of the times, that’s the practitioners learning through trial-and-error how you do this and figuring things out the hard way, a lot of times. And that’s how Brian started this, trying to figure these things out as he went along. We’ve added some information as we’ve gone along, but its basic recipe is starting out with bermudagrass, typically, and then seeding Kentucky bluegrass into the bermudagrass to have a a polystand of the two species growing together year round. And that’s what bluemuda is: a two-species system with perennial coverage, something that we’re not spraying out every spring.

Brian Winka 05:52
And really, the key to this is the newer varieties, which aren’t as new now. But the newer genetics that came out ten, twelve years ago on some of these bluegrasses – I think that was the key to this system to really allowing it to work where we’ve got the heat-tolerant, the traffic-tolerant, the more aggressive bluegrasses. Gregg obviously has done a ton of research and with multiple varieties of bluegrasses, and some worked really well and some just don’t work at all. So, the key is the newer genetics of bluegrasses that are out there.

Gregg Munshaw 06:31
You’re right, Brian. Newer genetics, but also, there’s got to be specifics in there as well, because we find that a lot of midnight types don’t typically work. They fight with the bermudagrass. We need a grass that’s going to play nicely with the bermudagrass and not be too aggressive to let the bermudagrass kind of take back over in the summertime, and some of the bluegrasses just don’t do that and become almost clumpy like a ryegrass might if you don’t spray it out. The bluegrass is really important, and, like he said, some of them work really well. We talk a lot about two specific ones, but there’s probably ten or fifteen that would do really well for this. But there’s probably just as many or way more that wouldn’t work in this situation. The bluegrass is really important, choosing the right one — more so, I’d say, than the bermudagrass.

Brian Winka 07:27
Yes, I would agree. And then kind of hitting on the bermudas, though, if you look at some of the older varieties — like a quickstand that have more of an open canopy versus the newer, whether it’s Northbridge or Tahoma, that the canopy’s a little bit tighter — the issue that you can run into there is just getting that bluegrass seed through that mat layer to get good germination. As long as you’re using good equipment and can get it down in there, there’s not an issue of using those newer varieties. It’s just the older ones, with the more open canopy, can be a little bit easier to get that established.

Rusty Stachlewitz 08:07
Yeah, so what is your recommendation for seeding? What’s your recommendation for seeding, on that aspect of getting it in there? Is this a slit-seed application, a broadcast application, both? What are we looking at?

Brian Winka 08:21
I typically will recommend slit-seeding so we know that we’re getting good seed–soil contact. Somewhere about that three pounds per thousand rate had success with people. In personal experience, going out in the spring (late, mid-May, early June) I did some fraze mowing on bermuda fields and then came back and seeded right into it there. So it really is getting that bluegrass seed into the soil.

Gregg Munshaw 09:05
We did some vertical mowing as well. I agree with Brian that a slit-seeder, that’ll open up the canopy a little bit as it drops in the seed, will do a great job even with the super dense bermudagrasses of today. But if you don’t have a slit seeder, vertical mowing (thinning out that bermudagrass somehow) is necessary to reduce the competition and create some of that loose soil to get that seed–soil contact that Brian mentioned. That’s critical for success in this. Bluegrass doesn’t germinate all that quickly. It’s not like a ryegrass. It may be ten, fourteen, twenty days depending on the variety. And you don’t want that burmudagrass just plowing over the seed and burying it, because you’re planting it at a time when the bermudagrass is still thriving. And it’ll completely outcompete the bluegrass seedling if there’s not a little bit of a buffer of space around that seedling from the bermuda.

Rusty Stachlewitz 10:04
Let’s get into that a little bit with the timing aspect. You mentioned already, but let’s go through the process mechanically. You’ve got bermudagrass established. You’re going to slit-seed or verticut, put bluegrass in. What time of year? What should your expectations be? Those sorts of things.

Gregg Munshaw 10:24
And Brian, do you want to talk at all about the going the other way, bluegrass to bermuda? Rusty said he can cut this up, so I’m not too worried about just going on.

Brian Winka 10:37
Yeah, essentially you can reverse the process if you’ve got a full bluegrass field and you want to use one of the seeded varieties of bermudagrass. Same type of scenario: mid-May, June, when it’s time to plant bermuda seed, go out there. Slit-seeder is going to be obviously your best way to do it. Your rate’s going to be somewhere about two pounds per thousand on that bermuda. It works doing it that way. I still prefer having a bermuda base and then adding the bluegrass into it that way. But you can essentially reverse the process and it works that way also.

Gregg Munshaw 11:16
Bermuda is also a really slow-to-germinate plant and has not great seedling vigor. And so, again, thinning out that bluegrass, getting some space in there for the bermudagrass to be able to come on, is important.

Brian Winka 11:37
I keep saying mid-May to June on some of this, but I prefer, if you’re adding a bluegrass into bermuda, to do a fall planting. And then with the expectations, I think Gregg and I both always tell people it’s a process. It’s not a ryegrass overseed. So, your expectation should not be that your field is going to look like you just overseeded ryegrass. It’s a process, it’s going to be slower. You’re not going to see that full result that first fall, for sure. I know both Gregg and I get phone calls early March before soil temperatures have warmed up, “Hey, I got this blue and it’s just kind of, it’s still just sitting in the rows that I planted. What’s going on?” And I think our response to both of them is typically, “Give it another couple of weeks, and let’s see what it looks like when the soil temperatures warm up.” And typically then is when you really start seeing the bluegrass start to spread. So, it’s a long-term solution, and it is a process. It’s not a quick solution like a ryegrass would be.

Gregg Munshaw 12:47
Because of that, Brian, there have been some turf managers that have thrown in the towel on it because it wasn’t fast enough. They weren’t getting that instant gratification that you do with ryegrass and said, “You know what, I can’t wait on something like this. I can’t wait two years or three years for it to be perfect. I need it perfect this first fall.” So, they just tried it one year and threw in the towel.

Brian Winka 13:12
Right. I know you say it, I say it. Anybody that I’ve heard talk about it explains that this is a process, not a quick fix. So you have to set that expectation with the grounds manager, your athletic director, your parks director, whoever you’re reporting to. Let them know the process that you’re doing here and set those expectations early on.

Rusty Stachlewitz 13:38
So both of those grasses have different nutrient requirements. I was going to ask about fertility requirements. Both of those grasses have (obviously one’s cool season, one’s warm season) different fertility requirements. Is cost of fertility a consideration when you’re converting to this type of field, because you don’t have a dormant time for either one of those grasses? What does that program look like?

Brian Winka 14:13
We talked about trial-and-error earlier, and I made a lot of mistakes early on. And, essentially, what I found out on fertility was slower releas. Essentially, you’re going to fertilize as if it was a cool season field. And what I see the success there and the reasoning that I kind of came up with was, typically, we’re using some quicker-release stuff on the warm season to try and get it to green up, fill in. We don’t have to do that with this process because you have a full dense turf area across your fields, so you can grow it slower. And by doing that, we wind up making a stronger turf and I think that’s where we see a lot of the traffic tolerance and recovery is better, because we’re not pushing it so fast. It’s more of a slow-release, spoon-feed type program, at least the ones that I’ve worked with and where we see the most success. Where I’ve seen it fail is where managers do (especially like mid-summer) if you go out there and you’re throwing ammonium sulfate or something quick-release, you’re probably going to burn up your bluegrass.

Gregg Munshaw 15:25
I agree completely. The first study that we did on bluemuda was with Mizzou and Virginia Tech, and Brian had it going on in his facility in Chesterfield, Missouri. But we were looking at planting different rates of bluegrass into bermudagrass and looking at different rates and products of fertilizers. And we found that polycoat fertilizer works much better on keeping both grasses happy through the season. But, since that time, seeing the spoon-feeding through the summertime to give the bluegrass just a little bit of fertilizer, make sure that bermudagrass is getting a little bit of fertilizer, seems to keep them both pretty happy through that summer. Like he said, if you go heavy with a soluble source during the summertime, you’re going to burn out that bluegrass. The bermuda’s going to love it, but that bluegrass won’t. So, little bits of fertilizer through the summertime, and it doesn’t have to be an expensive source. You can melt down urea and spray it on in a spoon-feeding amount. But yeah, using those small amounts. Another thing we found was, at establishment, if you go higher than normal — so, as much as three pounds of nitrogen going down at planting — we had better success that first fall with the grasses filling in than if we didn’t use any or if we just used one pound of nitrogen per thousand square feet. I think some of the fertilizer stuff is still a work in process, but I agree completely that you fertilize for the bluegrass. You go for three or four pounds per year total, and you split your applications. You do some fall apps to keep the bluegrass happy, but then you do some some slow release in the summertime to feed both grasses.

Rusty Stachlewitz 17:22
You’ve got two different grasses. Obviously, the new bluegrasses can tolerate a lower mowing height. Is there a consideration for that throughout the year? Are you differing mowing heights depending on what you’re trying to favor, or are you maintaining a similar mowing height throughout the year?

Brian Winka 17:40
So for me as a manager, I mowed my fields at three quarters of an inch and I kept it consistent year round. I’ve seen guys kind of play with their heights, but I think that three quarters to one inch is kind of the sweet spot, depending on what kind of mowers you have. I had reel mowers. If you’ve got a rotary mower and you can’t go that low, I don’t know that I would go much higher than an inch and a half, because I’d worry about shading out the bermuda a little bit. Find a height that works for you and stay there consistently throughout the season.

Gregg Munshaw 18:15
Yep, I know that there are some people that are going down as low as four-hundredths of an inch. And to me that’s a little frightening, even with these new super bluegrasses. My concern is, especially at the more southern locations, that you’re just going to have way too much stress on that bluegrass. And the chances of it making it through the summertime and coming back in the fall are probably not as high as if you had your height five-eighths or three-quarters or even an inch. And I understand in some situations, like fairways, you don’t want inch-long fairways. People want a half an inch or whatever they’re at for maximum roll. But, if people are really going to consider this two-grass system and really give it a good chance, I think a slightly higher mowing height, because of the limitations of the bluegrass, is the way to go. It doesn’t mean you have to be shaggy, you can still have them tight. But I think it needs to be just slightly taller than what we might consider in the South for a regular athletic field or fairway at a half an inch. Five-eighths, three-quarters I think is the magic number for bluemuda.

Brian Winka 19:30
What about growth regulators? Are you using or suggesting growth regulators, Gregg? I know I used them in my program, a pre-mow ten ounces per acre was typically where I was at every three to four weeks to help make that canopy a little tight and a little denser. Are you seeing that or are you recommending that as you get around the country?

Gregg Munshaw 19:56
In all of my work that I did with bluemuda, I never sprayed a single PGR. Now, that said, every turf manager that I talked to was spraying them, and looking at the success that they were having with the tightness of them, it’s hard to argue against using a PGR. So I think you can do it if you want to. Especially if you’re talking lawns and things like that, you don’t need to be spraying PGRs. We grew these things up as tall as five inches for horse racing, and in a situation like that, you don’t need to be messing with PGRs. But for the professional turf managers, I think PGRs are probably the way to go.

Rusty Stachlewitz 20:38
You mentioned at the beginning, Gregg, about some people considering these two grasses together for home lawns. What would be some of the considerations for height on that end, and would you need then a reel mower instead of a rotary mower, or can you go at a higher height and use a rotary mower in this blended scenario?

Gregg Munshaw 21:01
With shortcut grasses, we really need to be considering using a reel mower. You’re just not going to get as good of a cut quality with a rotary. But once you get up to an inch and a half, two and a half inches, whatever mowing height you’re looking for out of a lawn, you don’t need it. As long as you’re keeping the blade sharp on that rotary mower, it’ll do a good job of cutting the bermudagrass. The bluegrass is pretty easy to cut, but the bermudagrass blade is pretty tough. It’s going to beat down mower blades pretty quickly and be harder to cut. But when we mowed, we raised our heights up to as high as five inches and did incremental increases from three quarters of an inch, one and a half inches, two and a half inches, up to five. And that was all done with a rotary mower, and we had great success with mowing with the the rotary — no problems whatsoever. And one of the things that we thought, too, when we got to that really high height was, “Well, the bluegrass is going to be thriving. It’s not going to be under as much stress during the summertime, so it’s going to stick around. The bermudagrass may start to thin out, and if the bluegrass is extremely dense during the spring, will it shade out the bermudagrass coming out of spring and thin it out that way, as well?” And we didn’t see that at all. We saw a situation where, again, both of these grasses played really well together. And even at five inches, we had a good mix of both in the canopy during the summertime.

Rusty Stachlewitz 22:38
How far north and how far south can we implement this strategy?

Brian Winka 22:46
I think going further south is probably more of an option than north. I think the bermuda has its limits, obviously, as far as how far north it’s going to go. The bluegrass — I just talked to a guy the other day down in Alabama that did a Minor League park that’s putting it in. It’s not north or south, I guess it’d be west, but California is almost a perfect scenario out there. There’s a bunch of places out there that are using it. But I do think it’s really just the cold tolerance of the bermuda that is probably the biggest limiting factor on how far north you can go. Just because you got the bluegrass in there doesn’t mean your bermuda’s going to make it through the winter. So really, that’s the biggest limiting factor, I think.

Gregg Munshaw 23:35
I had somebody ask me the other day, “Can I do this in New York?” There’s a whole bunch of reasons to consider doing this, right? To me, it’s a better system than one or the other alone. But there’s limitations, right? If you get to minus twenty in the wintertime, your bermudagrass isn’t going to survive. On the flip side of that, I agree with Brian that there’s more opportunity to go south, because these bluegrasses are getting better and better. And there’s a guy that I know that is doing (we’ve got it in Huntsville, Alabama right now and we’ve got it in Atlanta, Georgia) but there’s a guy in Birmingham, Alabama, that’s going to be trying it this year, as well. And I’ll be curious to see — I’m not a betting man, but if I was I wouldn’t bet that it’s going to be all that successful that far south. But you know, who knows? I’ve been shocked by things before.

Rusty Stachlewitz 24:37
If you have a sports field with bluemuda on it, how much more usable does it become? How much more traffic can it sustain? Do we know, is there a percentage more games you can play or any data like that?

Brian Winka 24:55
I don’t know if we have any hard data on that. It does increase your playing season on your field, because if you’ve got a bermuda field that’s dormant in the spring and late fall, you could still play on it. But once you wear it down, there’s no recovery. Kind of the same with bluegrass: mid-summer, you’re going to wear it out, and it’s just going to take longer to recover. So, I know when we switched in my old facility, we went somewhere from about eight hundred hours a year on our soccer fields to close to two thousand hours a year, just because the fields were in better playability. And that’s not by any means a scientific study. That’s just kind of one facility and just kind of looking at what we did. It’d be interesting to see somebody in the academic world do a study like that.

Gregg Munshaw 25:51
Well, it just happens to be I was once in the academic world and did a study like that. What we saw with traffic simulators on bluemuda versus bermuda alone was that with fall traffic, bluemuda (and it doesn’t sound all that exciting) but bluemuda will take about ten percent more traffic than bermuda alone will. So that, in the fall, is not all that exciting. But the big difference there is if you wear that bermudagrass down to absolutely nothing in the fall, so it looks horrible. If you have spring sports on that same field, you’re not going to have bermudagrass to play on. But if you have bluemuda on that same field, that bluegrass will come screaming back in the springtime, and you’ll have a full covered field versus bermudagrass alone, where it’s going to be thin and obviously still dormant. That was the biggest difference we saw. Yes, in the fall, the bluemuda will take more traffic, but in the spring, where the bermudagrass isn’t going to recover until April or May, depending on where you are, the bluegrass starts to recover in February or March, depending on where you are. And you’ve got that full field a heck of a lot quicker than if it’s just the bermuda alone. And so that was the big benefit that we saw with recovery from traffic.

Brian Winka 27:19
I think even looking way back when I first started playing around with this was not only the fall traffic and when it comes out in the spring, but if you grow grass in the transition zone, you’ve dealt with winterkill. I had a couple fields where we had put an annual ryegrass on in the fall and transitioned out in the spring. Well, we had a really, really cold winter and I had a ton of winterkill, so basically had to shut that field down so we could get it reestablished. Once we transitioned over to having the bluegrass in there, you’ve got a lot more flexibility. So even if you do experience some winterkill, you don’t have to shut your field down. You could reseed into that field and still play. So, I’m not saying that bluemuda will make it where you’d never experience winterkill, but you’ll still have enough dense turf on that field where you don’t necessarily have to shut it down for a period of time to get it reestablished.

Rusty Stachlewitz 28:28
So, for a sport like soccer that’s played predominantly on the ground, you have differing densities in that situation. Does it affect play ability when you do have winterkill?

Brian Winka 28:44
I coached and played soccer at my old place and never noticed a difference in playability on that. Again, mowing at three quarters of an inch we got really good ball roll, pretty true surface. So, playability-wise, I thought it played fantastic. That’s from an amateur soccer player.

Gregg Munshaw 29:16
That’s the nice thing about hockey, the ice is smooth and perfect all the time. The only thing you might lack if you do get that winterkill, you’re going to have a good green stand to play on. One thing you’ll find from parents and coaches is that perception is reality. If there’s some grass there, it’s perfect. But if there’s dead grass there and it looks horrible, then you’re not a good turf manager and that field is unsafe. And so, that’s a big part of it right there. It looks presentable, and so it is presentable. But without the bermudagrass in there, there might be slightly less footing without the living stolons to hold cleats in place. But that’s really the only thing that I could see lacking if you didn’t have living bermudagrass under that bluegrass.

Rusty Stachlewitz 30:08
Are there any other considerations for putting in these fields or pitfalls to watch out for? Something we haven’t covered yet?

Brian Winka 30:21
The other thing that we didn’t touch on was fungicides and disease. I went my last couple seasons where we weren’t making fungicide applications anymore. And I don’t have the scientific reason behind why. I’ve got some theories on the fertility changed up and just the two grasses helping each other out. But disease really wasn’t an issue anymore on those fields for me, and I don’t know if you kind of see that same thing, Gregg, as far as just not seeing a lot of disease issues on that system.

Gregg Munshaw 31:00
Yeah, the big question that I always got was, “Why do I want to put bluegrass in in the transition zone or the Upper South when it’s got issues with summer patch?” So, that was one of the things that I thought about the first summer. But, in all the years that I grew bluegrass and bermudagrass together, I didn’t see a speck of summer patch. I didn’t see a speck of disease. But even if you got something, the chances of it spreading through the entire field, through the entire canopy, are slim, because you’d have different grasses side by side. And so it’s not as easy for that pathogen to just zoom through the canopy and take everything over. You still may get some spring dead spot of the bermudagrass from time to time, but you’re not going to know it because the bluegrass is there masking it. So, summer diseases weren’t an issue. And I think that’s one of the benefits that we’re going to see with this system is that environmentally, we’ve got less nitrogen than bermudagrass field. We’ve got less pesticides than a cool-season field. And so, those are good things to think about and to preach about moving forward. We’ve got a system here that environmentally makes a lot of sense. It’s tight. It’s a tight canopy. So, weed invasion is not as serious as if it was just a bluegrass alone. And so there’s just a lot of reasons environmentally to think about this two-grass system.

Rusty Stachlewitz 32:34
Have we investigated other two-grass systems going down that same line? Can we do bluegrass into zoysia, or tall fescue into bermuda?

Brian Winka 32:46
University of Missouri was doing a study with zoysia and bluegrass. I don’t know where they’re at on that. I know that they’re looking into that. Gregg, I think you may be looking at a couple other options also.

Gregg Munshaw 33:02
Yeah, and I reviewed a paper a number of years ago out of China, where they were looking at zoysiagrass and tall fescue together. And they seemed to work pretty well in that study. And they were looking to match up leaf textures and stuff, which, if you think about some of the older zoysias with some of the older tall fescues, leaves were fairly similar on those. But we looked specifically at tall fescues in bermudagrass at UK and had them mowed down to three quarters of an inch, which is not typical for tall fescues. Typically, for a lawn I would say keep that at two and a half, three and a half inches, whatever it is. And mowing them at three quarters should thin them out and kill them. But some of the tall fescues that I looked at (not all of them, but some of them) took that height, no problem, and did just fine with the bermudagrass. For locations farther south, especially if we’re talking lawns, tall fescue may be the way to go. If we’re talking golf or sports turf, some of these lateral spread fescues may be the way to go to help with recovery from divoting and whatever else these things are put up against. But I think we’re going to see more tall fescue in southern locations just because it’s a tougher grass, in general, over bluegrass. And the new ones are almost as pretty, almost as good-looking with texture and color and all of that stuff. I love tall fescues and so I’d like to see more and more of this happening with fesc-muda or whatever you want to call it.

Brian Winka 34:54
It doesn’t roll off the tongue as easy.

Gregg Munshaw 34:57
It’s just not the same. It’s not the same, I agree.